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Disarm / Dislodge

Doesn't cost mana? Put it here.

Posts: 302

Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:47 pm

Post Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:05 am

Disarm / Dislodge

I think disarm and dislodge need to be modified. In terms of general usefulness, noremove weapons and shield have made these abilities practically useless to use. However, with loot / item theft not being part of PK at this time, it gives us an opportunity to try something new.

Disarm - If disarm lands, your weapon is forced to your inventory (the way nodrop works now), and you have a debuff similar to how wither limb works for 0-1 hours (1-2 ticks) that prevents you from re-equipping your weapon (a message like "Your hand is too damaged to wield that right now!"). This hurts the victims damage and parry chance while conveying an actual advantage to the attacker. Once the debuff wears off, the victim will be able to re-equip their weapon.

Dislodge - Remove shield shattering and noremove from the item slot entirely and have it work similar to disarm detailed above. A successful dislodge will un-equip the shield item, preventing shield block from functioning (plus losing the item stats), and prevent it from being equipped for 0-1 hours until the debuff wears off. Most of the above points above apply.

Additionally stats like strength and dex can be used as modifiers for the attacker on these rolls, whereas strength, dex and con could be used as modifiers for the victims percentage of resisting the ability.
Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like, your OPINION, man.

Posts: 19

Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:39 am

Post Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:55 am

Re: Disarm / Dislodge

I like this but there needs to be a balance, a cool down maybe. Right now I could just disarm the whole fight and then you're fighting someone who doesn't have a weapon or shield the entire fight. Any class that can disarm would win every fight. So if it's a 1-2 tick ability then it needs a 5-6 tick cooldown or something.

Posts: 248

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:54 am

Post Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:56 am

Re: Disarm / Dislodge

I agree that disarm/dislodge are pretty lackluster but believe that they don't need to change, noremove/sticky are the ones that need to go.

Simply replace noremove/sticky flags with nodrop.

No clue why sticky was implemented in the first place.

Posts: 302

Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:47 pm

Post Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:59 am

Re: Disarm / Dislodge

Envenom wrote:I agree that disarm/dislodge are pretty lackluster but believe that they don't need to change, noremove/sticky are the ones that need to go.


The issue with not giving the additional hit to re-equipping an item is because if you disarm / dislodge in the current system, once the very minor 2-3 second lag passes, you can re-equip your item and fight on as normal, providing no actual benefit to the ability being used.

Also to go with Blabity's response as well, I'd be fine with a cool down on a successful disarm/dislodge (similar to harm touch having a "You can only attack on the ethereal plane so often").
Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like, your OPINION, man.

Posts: 248

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:54 am

Post Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:05 pm

Re: Disarm / Dislodge

There was a benefit:
- Fighter spent a round to disarm and gained one round of no-parry melee
- Opponent lost one round and lost the damage from the weapon

But PK-wise things actually are slightly different. Here's what usually happens:
- Fighter dirt kicks (assume losing 5 ticks doing so) or blinds;
- Fighter disarms and/or dislodges;
- Opponent is in a major disadvantage for the remaining rounds or until the blindness is healed.

Posts: 302

Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:47 pm

Post Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:11 pm

Re: Disarm / Dislodge

True, coupled with blind it is more powerful, but I'd like to push the benefit out to about the same amount of time without requiring a blind.

As it stands, PK takes too long because most things are such short lived duration (one round parry bonus, still have two other avoidance rolls, plus hit considerations now). I would think the proposed change now would normalize the effect of a disarm with blind without forcing the blind, and have it be an ability that's better to use when available, versus trying to make part of a combo.

Plus dirt kick is a sub par blind, when compared to the actual effect (0 tick vs what the mala lands for), so it would give dirt kick reliant classes a bit of a boost, since they're not offered much in that regard.
Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like, your OPINION, man.

Posts: 248

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:54 am

Post Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:33 pm

Re: Disarm / Dislodge

I just had another idea that you might enjoy.

○ Disarm:
- If target CANNOT be disarmed: each cast decreases weapon skill and parry by 10% for 3 ticks, the effect stacks and refreshes duration. If you reach 1%, the weapon is dropped as if under the effects of a strong weaken spell.
- If target CAN be disarmed: it works as normal, weapon goes to ground or inventory (for nodrop cases).

The RP idea is that disarm is a punishing maneuver. Having a weapon "magically glued" to your hands won't let you completely avoid the punishment, but instead transfer it to your limbs, thus impairing the melee capabilities.

○ Dislodge:
- If target CANNOT be dislodged: each cast decreases shield block skill by 10% and Armor Class by 10 for 3 ticks, the effect stacks and can be refreshed. If you reach 1%, the shield is dropped as if under the effects of a strong weaken spell.
- If target CAN be disdloged: it works as normal, shield goes to ground or inventory (for nodrop cases).

Same RP idea with the flavor that dislodge also punishes Armor Class.

I like it because it has a benefit from the get go and it gets worse as the fight progresses. Imagine fighting someone that is constantly trying to disarm you, that ought to be physically punishing.

Posts: 52

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:49 pm

Post Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:59 pm

Re: Disarm / Dislodge

After talking with Some Guy at length about Disarm/Dislodge and some of the ideas here, we've come up a more radical idea to consider:

DISARM
* 0 tick effect - cannot wield
* Weapon drops to inventory (regardless of noremove flag)
* If weapon noremove - 50% hand-to-hand skill reduction for tick duration (not below 1%)
* If weapon not noremove - 99% hand-to-hand skill reduction for tick duration (not below 1%)

DISLODGE
* 0 tick effect - cannot equip
* Shield drops to inventory (regardless of nodrop/nouncurse)
* Shield shatter removed

Some of the thoughts about this:
1) Noremove on weapons/Nodrop on shields - these flags have become in many cases more important than the stats of the gear itself. This idea negates that, while still allowing for some benefit (in the case of disarm), without completely disabling the flags themselves.

2) This idea means people will not lose a valuable piece of gear because of a simple skill. That ability, we feel, should remain exclusive to rogues.

3) The longer duration of effect greatly increases the usefullness of these skills, as well as provides a reason to change up a standard melee rotation to include them in PK.

4) The forced reduction to hand-to-hand skill (which is a monk-exclusive weapon on new chars) means older characters with hand-to-hand will only have a limited advantage (*IF* they have a noremove weapon).

Posts: 35

Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:03 pm

Post Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:25 am

Re: Disarm / Dislodge

I think that both Minox's and Envenom's idea on disarm/dislodge are both good but I'd like to bring up some random stuffs for both.

Envenom's disarm/dislodge - I think the stacking idea is cool and I think it adds a lot more depth and decision making to whether you want to fully disarm a target or not. But I think that having to stack disarm/dislodge 10 times over 3 ticks but at the same time it is incredibly strong since it reduces both your parry chance and weapon skill.

Minox's disarm/dislodge - Its good that people won't lose their weapons regardless of what weapon flags and it gives a little perk to old characters with h2h. I just think that an entire tick not being able to wield your weapon/shield is incredibly crippling and might be a tad OP even if you put a cooldown on dislodge/disarm.

Out of the 2 ideas, Minox's disarm/dislodge idea would work really well but with a 2-5 round cannot wield/cannot equip duration than a tick would make it good.

Posts: 52

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:49 pm

Post Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:52 pm

Re: Disarm / Dislodge

NoPantsuAndrew wrote:Minox's disarm/dislodge - Its good that people won't lose their weapons regardless of what weapon flags and it gives a little perk to old characters with h2h. I just think that an entire tick not being able to wield your weapon/shield is incredibly crippling and might be a tad OP even if you put a cooldown on dislodge/disarm.


That will depend on when within the tick it lands - it could only have a duration of a few rounds of combat. Another thing to consider - the only way this would be really 'crippling' is if you have an older melee character who never took disarm/dislodge vs a melee who does. Against a caster, spells are still able to be cast.

I am not opposed to a cooldown, because having that hit you constantly would be OP.
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