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Vamp reform

Fangers!

Posts: 80

Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:07 am

Post Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:20 pm

Vamp reform

I would not mind if vampires disappeared (although there's a fair bit of RP invested in them) or became an IMM-only RP convention or something. As a player-class (or however you think of them), I've never seen them work, really. And they're so powerful that they never successfully fulfill their RP function (too many people are drawn to their power, so to speak). I remember playing my Covy back in the day, and having people just harrass him not for attacking weres but for attacking a vamp patriach. Because they all thought the pat was peaches and cream (i.e., he didn't play the character as a complete *******, and they wanted in on the fun).

Some people should be drawn to vamps, but it should be few and far between. Since they're already given to quality PKers as a rule (or at least, in my experiences... I don't really know how it's done these days), the advantages in PK seem a little ridiculous. Basically, I think, if you can't win in PK without using the vamp skills, you probably don't deserve to have them, and if that's the case, you don't actually need them.

So, revolution (remove entirely) or real reform.

Posts: 150

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:03 pm

Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:13 pm

Re: Vamp reform

Vamp RP has several forms, although most of it isn't as the "good guy". I know some have, in the past, used that good guy persona to garner information or attempt to trick others into letting their guard down. I don't think all vampires should be cut and dry assholes, but I also do not think they should be anywhere near good. A mix, depending on the overall role they intend to carry out would be preferred(to me). If someone RP's a HUGE **** the entire time he talks to anyone, eventually people will stop talking to him and simply ignore his presence because they can already tell what his response will be: "Hey, look at me! I'm a Vamp! AND A ****!"
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Posts: 124

Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:26 pm

Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:14 pm

Re: Vamp reform

Alezar wrote:the advantages in PK seem a little ridiculous. Basically, I think, if you can't win in PK without using the vamp skills, you probably don't deserve to have them, and if that's the case, you don't actually need them.

This has bothered me. If you're capable of killing lots of people, your reward is... being able to even more easily kill people. The strong get stronger.

Kiirion wrote:I also do not think they should be anywhere near good.

Why not?

Posts: 80

Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:07 am

Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:51 pm

Re: Vamp reform

I just don't know what RP function they really bring to the game, and I argue that the game/PK benefits of being a vamp cloud their RP potential from the beginning.

Posts: 150

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:03 pm

Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:58 pm

Re: Vamp reform

I don't see vampirism as a good quality. I don't have any plans to restrict a Pat/Minions RP based on my own thoughts and I do give them free reign to establish their RP as they want...be it good or bad or anywhere in between.

Posts: 80

Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:07 am

Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:17 pm

Re: Vamp reform

I guess I'm arguing to nothing here, since you said you have no plans, but the last point I would make is that, to me, as a player, vamps seem more like an imm or a guild than a player character (I understand that they ARE in fact player characters, but I am talking about how they function in the game). Since they are chosen, it would seem that they are chosen for a purpose, and from the perspective of a player, I always viewed them as, in some way, a representation of the staff's intentions BECAUSE of the fact that they are chosen (and, let's be fair, at least from my experience back in the day, largely chosen from the staff itself). So, a player character can be enigmatic if it suits their role, but because of the way that imms/guilds are supposed to be buttresses for game-wide roleplay they can only be enigmatic to a point: their purposes have to be clear to some extent.

I'm just trying to give you my perspective as a player, which I think can be valuable here, because as a player it has always been difficult, if not impossible, to figure out what vampires want. Maybe this is because I'm a poor or inobservant player. But I feel like give their emphasis within the game (particularly given the fact that, again, they are CHOSEN, not creatable, and therefore inherently different from regular player characters), this is a problem for me as a player and how much and in what ways my characters are able to interact with vampires. I don't see this as a restriction to vampires, so much as a means of creating meaningful RP around them for a much larger portion of the character base. If we're not "nerfing" vampires, I would suggest that there be some sort of common goal supposed for vampires (like the Church of Syrin), even if it is as mysterious as the Church of Syrin is, because this would give players some way of interacting with them beyond what I see as pretty limited roleplay opportunities. Just my two cents--not requesting you act on it. I got no demands or expectations. Just something to think about, hopefully.

Posts: 150

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:03 pm

Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:38 pm

Re: Vamp reform

So, i'm not entirely sure which vampires you mean are chosen by staff(simply starting from the top and working down, btw). Patriarchs are chosen, typically for their RP and/or PK ability, by the admin staff. Once the Patriarch is chosen, he is given a very loose interpretation of his role and he evolves it from there. He then determine who he wants to ally with, or create a minion. Admin do have some say in who become minions, based a very loose criteria. Typically, people who have a history of trouble records are not allowed to be minions. There was also a rule floating around while Covenance was around...If you had a Cov and an alt was about to be minioned, you had to ice your Cov until the vamp died, to prevent fighting both sides of the battle.

Moving forward, I do expect vampires to take a backseat to whatever core RP we determine to move forward with(see the core RP thread I posted...comment as you want). I see them as a means to enhance RP, not be centralized around them(though I am sure some strains of RP will center around them as it does with all characters). Pre-Lilith, the broods had a common goal, for the broods. Lasombra went about trying to raise Lilith's power, and the City of Nod and Ravnos fought against them, attempting to thwart them whenever possible, and kill them whenever they got the chance. Ferocai, the new brood, has its own agenda, but you'll have to RP with them to find out what it is. Depending on the player, the difficulty of getting information from the Pat can quickly rise to a level that's hard to reach...so each interaction feels like you're getting very little real data to add to your "Wtf do these people even do?" collection.

Posts: 248

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:54 am

Post Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:45 am

Re: Vamp reform

I will take this opportunity of giving my overview of vampires and the MUD's RP as a whole. Hopefully I'm not repeating what I've said on other threads.

Vampires within guilds - this doesn't only create a huge imbalance in PKing, but also usually taints the guild's RP
○ PK: Do I even have to bother citing vampires that absolutely wrecked everyone while in Crimson Rain or Inferno? Did any of these ever lost a 1-1 battle on fair grounds (no charmies, no cheesy tactics...)? If they did, was it against a guilded werecreature? Werecreatures aside...imagine how exciting it is using your one unique ability against someone with five-six equally powerful ones...because that's what Covenance was....the hunted hunters.

○ RP: My impression was that whenever a vampire of a certain brood joined a guild (mostly a PK one), the guild instantly embraced his plans. A Covenance wants to kill my vampire guild mate? War on Covenance! His brood wants to bring apocalypse? I don't care! We are on the same side and I have my ticket for the salvation ark! My guild got a powerful artifact that vampires seek? Gotta give it to them and be friends forever! Yay!

Those are all extremes but that's what you see when you are an outsider...which is expected when you consider how restricted vampire RP was. Yes, there were guilded vampires that manipulated others according to their plans, but wouldn't they be able to do the same thing and be embraced after the task was finished? And how about the times when a guilded vampire fooled or betrayed the guild and remained in its ranks? In my opinion, the players in general were too kind and receptive with vampires.

Vampires crap power - they don't get one powerful ability; they don't get two; they get more abilities than your whole class has!
○ PK: Glory Spell (1), Focus (2), Confusion (3), Rune Blade (4), Skeletons (5), Celerity (6) / Interred to Earth (6), Entrance (7) / Blood Boil (7), the other two I don't remember
Won't say anything about them other than the fact that every single one of them is stronger than anything an ordinary player can get.

○ RP: Which PK guild doesn't want a character with such overpowered abilities? Playing the powerful guild is way cooler than playing the one that everyone picks on and having a vampire in your ranks really shifts the balance of power...good news if you are playing a Covenance, right?

Sorry if it sounded like a rant. :roll:

Posts: 186

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:14 pm

Post Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:38 am

Re: Vamp reform

If I'm mistaken vampire minions can no longer seek a guild. Now its what I've heard, so if its not true, I'd appreciate a clear answer.

I don't see vampires in any way on DR being the nice guy. I don't think we want to see a bunch of sparkling vampires falling in love with mortals anytime soon.

I see them as cunning and deceitful. If they're being a nice guy to you, its because they seek something from you, or attempting to gather information regarding their agendas. I also don't think vampires should be outright 'dicks' either. But definitely ruthless if you push them the wrong way.

Question is though, as with Kiirion's core RP thread. Of which I still don't have anything concrete to offer from my perspective. Where do vampires go from here considering there is no more a major antagonist like Lilith? So in terms of understanding their RP, its most likely quite mysterious to themselves as to the rest of the mud.

There has only been a few pkers who weren't weres or other vampires who could match a vampire at full strength in terms of the many spells they get in their ridiculous arsenal. However, I don't know what to propose though in terms of reforming vampire RP.

Posts: 150

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:03 pm

Post Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:04 am

Re: Vamp reform

As of Lilith dying, we are moving towards vampires not being guilded. Allies of a Pat can be, but minions can not. This is because of the imbalance Envenom spoke of.
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