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Rework IMMS/OOC time

Archive of ideas that have been implemented or refused.

Posts: 2

Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:48 pm

Post Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:24 pm

Rework IMMS/OOC time

Heyo folks, first post here!

After a big, long OOC chat (in the actual game, heavens!), I've been inspired to lend my voice, words and experience to help us all get our heads together about DR. I'll like to speak up again about two things that really caught my attention.

First one is fairly easily done. A weekly/monthly meeting. Everyone who wants to go gets beamed up or meets up in a little room and we all chatter OOC'ly. No drama, no nonsense, we can talk about how the week went, what stories have been going and how our experience is with the slowly changing mechanics. Somewhere between a brainstorming session and a chillout, since we can drop all the character rage and just speak to each other as people, since OOC hatred bleeding into IC actions is absolutely cancerous.

With that said, it leads into my second more bothersome suggestion.

Get rid of IMMS as we know them.

Yup, I know Immortal leaders of guilds have been at the core of Dark Risings for a long time, but I've been here long enough to see that almost every single shitstorm has been caused
by an IMM abusing their power. It could start from many ways, perhaps an IMM's alt gets ganked, or they build resentment for someone from some other medium. (Hello Fightbook!) ultimately though, it leads to all this power concentrated in the hands of one irate ******* who then goes to take it out on everyone below them. I've heard plenty of horror stories about IMM abuse when I had started and took it all with a pinch of salt, until it happened to me, which I'll now go over.

For those of you who might not know, Ravindra has always been a strong foe against Vampires. He spent plenty of years gathering information, tricking and smoking out vampires and their servants, with Ashanni rewarding him with the rank of Meridian for his years of hard work both as a defender of the people and all the lore that I wrote. Of course, Rav
pissed off many people by thwarting their ambitions, which led to a conga line of assassins chasing him around.

That's cool! I can handle that, it's all in game and it all plays off each other. What I, and nobody else should have to deal with is when people bring OOC ******** into IC actions, usually in the form of crossing information with characters.

Now, one such person was Zyppora. She was a slave to Daighemmon (can't be arsed with the spelling.) and was deteremined to get into the circles to act as his mole. Ravindra identified her and made sure that everyone knew where her real loyalties lay. That's all IC, that's all acceptable.

Now, somehow down the line, Zyppora's player ends up as Ailios. The new IMM of Arcaenum. Then for some mysterious reason, she picks a fight with Ravindra over **** all, slays him and derails his entire career and years of build up. All because of IC things that had happened to her previous character.

Another example would be all the hoops that Ravindra had to go through to get back into Arcaenum.Tasks. Trials. Probations. He still maintained his strong anti-vampire stance and often complained about Trysta's blood drinking, killing and utter lack of work, despite there being a rule that all of Traumir had to do a ritual at least once a week. Ravindra complained away to Zalyriel, the current immortal of Arcaenum..who also just happened to be Trysta and of course just turned a rubber ear to all of Ravindra's legitimate IC complains, just to further their own OOC agenda.

That's a horrendous abuse of power in both counts. Now, I know it's almost certainly going to be frowned upon to reveal alts and names, but as far as I know, all four/two of these characters are long, long gone, but the players themselves are responsible for stupid, stupid abuse of their position and all the trust that was put in them. Twice, Arcaenum had IMMS who wanted vampires within the circles, twice against the wishes of the actual people who made up the guild, but went ahead with it anyway.

It's with that in mind that I realized that almost all the drama has come from crushingly poor IMM responsibility. It's certainly had a knock on affect on the game at large. IMMS act like cunts to players. Players get sick of being abused and leave. IMMS then have nobody to **** on, they leave. End result is a husk of a game.

Now, I know that not all IMMS are bad, but all it takes is one selfish ******* to ruin it all for many, many people. With this in mind, I'll like to throw out some ideas to replace the IMM system and what they do.

The first part of it is pretty obvious. No blatant god-ruler of guilds anymore. Have them entirely maintained, run and scored by mortals. The next part is a little bit more interesting. When it comes to rp-events, promoting/demoting, creating relics and other IMM related duties. Why not have a team of volunteers? Or give these permissions to the players themselves? Nobody is bound to any single guild. A helper can just see a request for some IMM magic, pop over oocly and hidden, make it happen then leave again.

So, to wrap this up, here's a tl:dr.

1)Weekly OOC chat to brainstorm and chill.
2) **** IC / OOC drama. We're all adults, don't cross it over.
3) **** **** IMMS. Do away with them entirely for volunteer roles instead.
4) Keep on talking. It was great fun to remember that there's actual people behind the words on the screen. Not just names and numbers to be smacked around.

So, thoughts?

Posts: 6

Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:01 pm

Post Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:23 pm

Re: Rework IMMS/OOC time

The fact of the matter is, the staff have absolutely zero accountability, from the imm level all the way up to implementers. Things get pushed despite the disapproval of players, blatant abuses of power are completely handwaved, do-nothing slack-asses keep their positions for months and months at a time despite having zero reason to be there on a merit basis alone. Petty and pathetic internet revenge fantasies get played out like in Ravindra's posts.

Quite, frankly, the staff are children. They have repeatedly and consistently demonstrated they are children, extremely sensitive children who turn it into a vendetta whenever their feelings get hurt because someone points out that their bad idea is, in fact, terrible. Children who believe they and their friends can do no wrong, and any criticism of their (possibly lack of) administrating is a personal attack. The amount of petty ******** that goes on would be appropriate for high school, which is about where most of DR is mentally.

If you think I'm describing you, person-who-was-on-staff-and-is-reading-this, the answer is: probably, because we've had at least three or four straight "generations" of staff that quickly proved to not only be immature but to have their own heads lodged up their ***.

Since we're obviously not mature enough for a power structure, we'll have to do away with it.

No more guild imms. Really, I'd almost say no more guilds. We're too damn small to pretend we can house even 4 groups that stay consistently active. We get plenty of imms who sit around with their thumb up their *** because nobody in their guild logs in and nobody cares enough to join. An imm is just an imm, not bound to any guild. For a game our size we could honestly make do with just maybe 3 of these people. Or, better yet, just give most of the stuff people turn to imms for to the players. Do I really need to beg Big Daddy Boss for some rp-enhancing echoes or to do ******** free restrings? That's stupid. How about you let me do it so I can play the game myself instead. If player themselves could do that kind of thing most imms would be out their jobs.

But decentralizing privileges like this might never happen, because when you're on top and have all the cards, why would you pass up the opportunity to get virtual revenge on that guy who called you stupid and make you upset a while ago?

This is more of an angry, flaming rant than anything constructive because there's not much constructive that can be said about it. Most staff need to grow the hell up. Most PLAYERS need to grow the hell up. And the only way for that to happen is for the people themselves to grow the hell up. Until that happens, DR will eternally be fucked.
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Posts: 82

Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:54 am

Post Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Rework IMMS/OOC time

You won't find me disagreeing with any of the above, but I did find it quite entertaining that the first sentence of this was about accountability from someone named 111111!

I've had my own fair share of Imm related issues over the years, like almost everyone else has, but I'm not going to get into it now - primarily because most of it was so long ago that I no longer care. I've also seen a lot of friends get burnt out on DR from the strain of trying to Imm here and that deserves a mention too - it can't be easy having people think they can lean on you to provide the interesting RP or run the guild and the quests. It might just be too much.

Personally, I'd like to see Imm's become less of characters and more of OOC helpers that work across the guilds for the stuff that the players cannot do due to limited game mechanics. Either those mechanics get given to more people, or the helpers keep them but don't get to rule over the different guilds. I nice team of magical helper mascots would be perfect! It allows Imms to work with whatever guilds they want without having to insert themselves into that guilds RP or IC structure.

I have always found it to be very ill-fitting that the likes of Arcaenum, this group of magical nerds who've dedicated their lives to being skeptical and researching magic, will have a new stranger walk in who tells them they're super powerful and are now the leader, and Arcaenum is meant to just go with it. Every guild is different but Arcaenum has a fairly organized mort power structure so this might be a problem mostly limited to them, and perhaps Gypsy, but it has happened repeatedly and driven away a handful of players each time it has happened - almost without fail. Other guilds have their own mort power structures too but again these get trampled on when a new Imm says so - for example the recent issues with Dawning.

To me it seems like the benefits of an IC Guild Imm do not outweigh the cons. I enjoy the RP on DR but the thought of having another run-in with an Imm over things really turns me off the idea of coming back to play regularly again.

Posts: 6

Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:01 pm

Post Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:06 pm

Re: Rework IMMS/OOC time

I don't have any actions to be accountable for. If you want me to be accountable for my opinion, all I have to say that is: yeah, right, with how petty this community is? Not a chance I'm IDing myself so some butthurt future-staff can do payback by screwing with my characters.

Making imms not characters is a good idea. Get out, if you wanted to play you'd be on as a player, not a staff. Add that to making imms not bound to a guild (no more "Dawning imm" "CR Imm", just immortals hanging around) and I think we might see a lot less ********. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much that would solve, just offload the corruption from imms to whoever the top dog of the guild is.

If we're going to talk power structures, we might as well talk about it on every scale Since you like talking about Arcaenum, I'll use it as an example. How its structured would make a whole lot more sense for a game that had about 20 people in that guild by itself, and maybe a hundred people total. With our numbers that hit 7 on a busy night with one or two Arcs once in a while, maybe every 4 months you'll see a meridian, the "fairly organized power structure" is both a empty decaying skeleton and a bit of a joke.

We can have guilds with sophisticated power structures if we want, but we have nobody to fill the spots and when they're filled there's no sanity check on them actually being active to deserve their place. Sound familiar? Maybe like how we don't like imms who never show up and do anything? How high of a position have YOU kept, Yuneo, despite frequent gaps of inactivity? In the last... half a year or so, what have you done to deserve your spot even to just be in the guild, on merit and achievement alone? Similar vein, how many centuries has it been since Dawning's mortal leaders or anybody at all has popped in for more than 5 minutes?

It's high time to stop trying to pretend DR's a larger game, or a more active game, than it actually is or has ever been at its pea). Guilds, clans, broods, all this **** just doesn't fit anymore. Throw it out, downsize it, and bring it back in as something more fitting a single-digit playerbase.

Posts: 63

Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:07 am

Post Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:26 am

Re: Rework IMMS/OOC time

I agree--I'm not sure I really see a need for guild IMMs at this point (and in retrospect, I wonder how much good they ever really did--oh, and I will once again out myself as a former member of staff that was probably described in the above).

What do we need IMMs for? Because I do believe we need staff for a variety of reasons both present and if the game should ever grow again.

1. Help with RP events (mechanically--I need a mob, I have a quest idea, I need some gechos, etc.).
2. Help with RP events (logistically--be a nexus for player ideas, think of ways to connect existing RP, force some interactions if necessary).
3. Play as some characters who can push things along, if necessary (these need not be guild characters--stock characters, like Bree, often fill these roles admirably--if we could perhaps expand the cast to a few more stock characters that IMMs can assume the roles of, there could be some benefit there).
4. Approving new character descriptions. (Debatable--I still like having a description approval system. I'm sure others find it unnecessary. I would suggest raising the level you need approval by, given the relative paucity of staff. Make it so you can get to 49 unapproved or something. But perhaps we need to revisit the system; offer some sort of delayed approval system? The description gets logged and the next staff on can look it over and approve even if the player is not on? I don't know if that's possible.)
5. Enforce the rules (yes, I realize this is inherently flawed--historically, bar none, biggest rules-breakers have been staff members--but at the same time, the alternative is worse, IMO).
6. Plan/generate RP events of their own (these often take the form of quests, but need not necessarily).

So, if you take away guild responsibilities/RP from staff, what I want from them is this: an active and creative engagement with players to create RP. I see a lot of staff who just become sort of deadened: either things are going well with their guild and they hit auto-pilot, or things are going poorly... and they do the same.

I honestly think that being a member of the staff outside of the responsibilities of a guild would make the job more exciting, not less and allow for more meaningful player interact, not less.

Heck, the IMMs can even continue to be IC characters. Just don't keep them in charge of guilds (Avalane could easily become a stock character for goodness, Aito for learning, etc. etc.).

Posts: 6

Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:01 pm

Post Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:46 pm

Re: Rework IMMS/OOC time

[quote="111111"]We can have guilds with sophisticated power structures if we want, but we have nobody to fill the spots and when they're filled there's no sanity check on them actually being active to deserve their place. Sound familiar? Maybe like how we don't like imms who never show up and do anything? How high of a position have YOU kept, Yuneo, despite frequent gaps of inactivity? In the last... half a year or so, what have you done to deserve your spot even to just be in the guild, on merit and achievement alone? Similar vein, how many centuries has it been since Dawning's mortal leaders or anybody at all has popped in for more than 5 minutes?


The point of this, by the way, wasn't to attack Yuneo directly (okay, it kind of was). It was to show, using a familiar example of herself, that making guilds "mortal-ran" doesn't solve anything. Instead of a corrupt immortal being a petty jackass, it's the mortal leader or whoever has the most influence in the guild. Instead of immortal Kezia strangling a guild by doing literally nothing for over half a year, it could be Yuneo, Filian, Varmanzir, Datcher, anyone from CR/Aequitas, or anyone else that pops in only on the third full moon of a month. Same ****, different day: corrupt people who do nothing keeping their positions and hurting everyone else as a result of it. And if those imms tend to stick around and actively get defended by the rest of the staff (because the hill you want to die on is "i fully back and approve this staff member that does nothing of any merit over several months"), it's going to be damn near impossible to vote a player off the island of having power.

Because at the heart of things, if we can't be adults when we're staff members running the game, what's going to make us be adults when we run something else? It's just shuffling around who's going to ruin things.

Post Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:41 am

Re: Rework IMMS/OOC time

Let's not forget kezia slayed maelic for no reason. And while we are at it the staff killed lasombra one by one... **** like that shouldn't happen so I gotta agree with some of this.

Posts: 2

Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:48 pm

Post Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:15 am

Re: Rework IMMS/OOC time

111111 wrote:

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH **** YOU AALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!


Two things!

1) Holy **** Six is mad.
2) Bosses of DR, allow me to present you exhibit B as to "Why bad IMMS will screw your game." 111111 right here. People who are angry as **** and wary enough to do It from behind a mask don't just pop out of nowhere. I'm pretty sure that 1 here is just one of the many folks who got burnt by some ******** on top and this release is the closest thing they're ever going to get to fair justice or even representation.

He/she isn't wrong though, I agree with pretty much everything that's been said so far. For the attendance problem, I feel that feeds back into the mistreatment problem. What is the actual point of working, writing and fighting hard, spending all that time to build up a character statistically, dramatically and personally if it can, and will get demolished within a moment by some ****-thick manchild up top? No wonder people have been putting less and less time and effort in when a single IMM with the "My way or the Highway" mentality will strongarm you all into obeying them, or will break you by smashing the square peg of your character through the triangle hole of their own agenda.

I'm glad to hear contributions from other folks too, I'm sure we've all got IMM horror stories to share. This just reaffirms the point to properly police and screen the people you entrust such power and responsibility to. Sure, So and So might be your best friend and a great bootlicking brownnoser, but if they've got the people skills and empathy of your average basement troll then they're going to demolish your playerbase. But hey, at least you've got a handful of sycophants to flatter and fuss over you within the wide, yawning void of an empty MUD.

So, I'll take this chance to repeat myself. Change IMMS entirely. It's already dubious enough to put the absolute power of some immortal god-leader in the hands of one person, nevermind an infantile Net Warrior. Again, I'll like to champion the idea of having volunteer helpers, rather than having to beg and stoop to the kind graces of an untouchable god-thing to perhaps create a doohicky or an item to allow us to wring more enjoyment out of the game.

So again. Please, if you must put someone in a position of authority, make sure they're good not just with you, but can be good with everyone. **** arse kissing, gushing, genuflecting, Yes-men and women. It's no secret that there's people out there who have done all sorts of **** things in character and out, yet because they have their tongue so far up someone on top's arse they could clean their teeth, they get forgiven, nay, rewarded for any and all trespasses, while anyone else would have been hung, drawn and quartered. Don't encourage that ****. Reward and punish for IC and OOC actions accordingly. Have some fucking decorum and don't flutter as soon as someone starts to **** your ego. If you feed these toads and shun people who are actually trying, then you'll reap what you sow. The good folks wither and die off and you get left with those shitrats who'll still beg and demand to be fed and pampered, while flattering you all the while, only to run off when they see they've milked you for all your worth and then butter up some other unwitting IMP/Mod/whatever. Know that every time you bend a rule, give a gift or let a trespass slide for your special little friends, you're making monsters who'll scare away everyone else.

So who's in charge here then? You or them? From what I've seen, they were running the show in the past, let's change that for the future, yeah?
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Posts: 159

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:25 pm

Post Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:40 am

Re: Rework IMMS/OOC time

Two posts have been removed. Both of them were nothing more than a blip of 'you suck' and not relevant to the conversation. It seems pretty hypocritical to attack players and staff for not being adults and then resort to name calling, so let's be adults already.

However, I will say this again, Flestiraef - this is not the place to talk about your ban. Bring it up again and you'll have a new one to talk about.

Edit: Problem solved.

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