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Racial Vulns

Race unique ideas

Posts: 63

Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:59 pm

Post Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:57 pm

Racial Vulns

Racial vulns keep coming up in the mage thread, so I thought I'd take the opportunity to bring this up.

I'm working on weapons in an attempt to make 2H's better. As I was working on this, the disparity of some vulns being available in the game while others are not is a problem. How to address this becomes tricky, as several classes don't even have a vuln.

So this is an idea I'm tossing out here first to see what people think:

(sorry if the formatting is terrible)

Race Curr Vuln New Vuln
Kine None None
Werekin None Sound (high-pitched sounds negatively affect them due to their heightened senses)
Dwarf Drowning Drowning
Merfolk None Light (dries them out)
Sylvan Iron Iron
H-Elf None Iron (blame the sylvan blood)
Avariel Wind Wind
Drow Light Light
Orc Mental Mental
Ogre Mental Mental
Draconian Sound Sound
Lich Holy Holy
Githyanki Holy Holy
Kender None Drowning (I have tried to think of an IC reason for this, but I don't have anything)

Why change vulns?

* It gives every race but Kine a real vuln to 'hit'.

* It increases the use of a variety weapons in the game, instead of the 'one' weapon reliance we have now.

* It adds a 'risk' to classes that are traditionally chosen for the perk of no vuln + perm/innate spells/skills

Why not fire/cold/lightning? Adding NEW vulns would require a lot more work to change/remove all those damnouns from weapons in the game. Goodbye infernal whip of flame, Windstorm Dagger, etc. The weapons are already tailored to the current in game vulns, so all I'm really doing is 'doubling' up on who is affected by those vulns.

Two things that I'd like to see come along with a change like this:

* Access to weapons that hit these vulns on lower level weapons. Like the golden cross or rapier, these weapons would be avg 24, lower level, lower stats than the normal level 50-60 weapon.

* Expanding certain classes to get a spell to 'hit' these vulns.
Monk - gain 'wind' spell
Templar - holy damage becomes light damage
Warrior - 'iron' spell
Cleric - Holy (no change)
Bard - Sound (no change)
Psi - Mental (no change)
Mage - change waterbolt specifically to no long hit as 'drowning' - and ideally, for pvp purposes only. If it's possible to code, I'd like to see mages keep the ability to hit the mob vuln of 'drowning', but not a player race vuln.

Also:
* adding a werekin resistance to cold (I'm sorry to even use the word 'Twilight', but that's the easiest parallel to connect an IC reason why werekin would be more resistant)

* adding an avariel resistance to lightning (Being permanently flying means they are not grounded, and lightning would be less likely to strike them)

I know this is a ton of stuff to try and absorb at once. Please let me know what you all think, or how the idea could be improved.

Posts: 186

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:14 pm

Post Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:11 am

Re: Racial Vulns

So far it makes sense. So I have no dramas.

Don't kenders already have a vuln to disease though in shifted form?

Posts: 248

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:54 am

Post Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:52 am

Re: Racial Vulns

Racial Vulns isn't as simple as it seems.

Since it is something almost entirely PK-related, balance should take as many PK variables as possible.
This is my attempt of listing as many as I can remember:
#1 Racial stat gains - certain races have way better gains than others (dwarf mages have roughly 200 more stats than sylvan mages, despite both having magic resistance)
#2 Racial perks - magic resistance, wield 2her as 1her, fly, swim...you know it...
#3 Usefulness of racial were - weres are pretty common when you look at PKers (dwarves are vulnerable to a magic damnoun (water) and gain magic resistance when shifted)
#4 Availability of racial-hitting spells and weapons : there should exist only one class capable of hitting each and weapons need serious drawbacks

As for the proposed changes...neither werekines, half-elves or kenders (add orcs to this) gain anything special (outside of free creation class skills). There is absolutely no reason for giving them a vulnerability...unlike sylvans/dwarves that gain magic resistance or draconians/ogres that gain monkey grip.

Oh! I wouldn't mind if avariels and merfolks vulnerabilities were set back to fire/lightning. After all, their were abilities are really strong and their shifted magic resistance makes up for their racial vuln.

Drows sort of share the same issue of avariels and merfolks: their unique were ability is really strong and they gain shifted magic resistance. However, for some unexplained reason, their stock light weapon was removed from almost a year within the game.

Yea...it's hard balancing around weres but most PKing characters are a combination of guild + were or guild + vampire (which also gains magic resistance when shifted!).

Posts: 63

Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:59 pm

Post Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:02 am

Re: Racial Vulns

Hrobshur wrote:Don't kenders already have a vuln to disease though in shifted form?


All shifted weres gain an additional two to four vulns and one to two additional resists.

Posts: 63

Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:59 pm

Post Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:09 am

Re: Racial Vulns

Image

Here's what we came up with. And you're correct - changing vulns will not 'balance' classes by itself, there's too much imbalance. Half-elf and Werekin are the two races who see next to no 'perk' compared to the other races, and there are things to address there. On the flip side, comparing across the benefits available to Kender and Merfolk, there's no reason they should not have a hittable vuln.

Also, creation is hitting it's final stages of planning, and with it will come an upheaval of how much of a benefit current creation perks are.

I guess what I'm trying to say is - the old 'balancing' act of vulns clearly doesn't *work*. By giving all races a hittable vuln (and all of these vulns *will* be hittable in terms of an available stock weapon), we can further narrow down the areas that still need to be resolved.

Posts: 248

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:54 am

Post Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:23 pm

Re: Racial Vulns

I have mixed feelings about these changes.

From what I could tell, only the races with exceptional perks had common vulns, which were often limited by low avg weapons or 1-2 class spells.

* Magic Resistance:
- Sylvans are vuln to two pretty common weapons with really high "vuln avg": 30 and 36 (on 2Her).
- Dwarves are vuln to two of the strongest PKing classes in the game: mages and druids. Their gains are much better than sylvans too.

* Huge:
- Ogres are vuln to two classes and have better gains than draconians.
- Draconians are vuln to one class, but have a great were skill.

* Swim and Fly:
- Avariels are vuln to a single vuln weapon with low avg: 24. They used to be vuln to fire (1 weapon at the time, flashfire, fireball...) but it was a bit too harsh. However, even with the wind racial vuln, their were more than compensates: the shifted magic resistance lessens the racial vuln damage and wing buffet is great.
- Merfolks are a mess. They used to be vuln to lightning (2 exotic weapons at the time, thunderclap, chain lightning...), then became vuln to acid (2 weapons, acid blast) and now are vuln to nothing. Funny thing that their magic resistance did too lower the racial vuln damage they took. Oh! How could I forgot mentioning that they have the strongest (and broken IMO) wereskill in the game? They have absolutely no summoning sickness on pets, regardless of being shifted or unshifted.

* Blindfighting - what does that even do?
- Drows fall somewhere between merfolks and avariels. They have that light vuln for quite some time but, unlike avariels, there is no good weapon with it. Well...there used to be one, but it was removed after one year or so around. Their weres, too, benefitted from lowering the racial damage taken when shifted through magic resistance. The main difference between them and merfolks is that drows trade fear for some not as useful wereskill (feed and web?) AND they only gain limitless pet summon while shifted.

All in all, what I'm trying to say is:
- Sylvan and Dwarves are fine.
- Ogres and Draconians are fine. Ogres will become slightly better once the overcap of attributes is fixed.
- Avariels are in the perfect spot.
- Drows need a stock light weapon, in the same fashion as avariel's.
- Merfolks need a vuln: acid or lightning would fit them best.
- Merfolk Weres need summoning sickness, unless there is a reasonable explanation for their limitless summon.
- Kender...I have so little experience with them that I'd rather not destroy them with a racial vuln.

Asides from merfolks and drows, adding an extra weapon or skill that hits a race's vuln would make it worse.

I believe the reason for the old/current vulns not working in PK is fairly simple: vorpal.
Everyone and their mother are wielding vorpal weapons because they are much stronger than anything else available.
Vorpal is a sure-strike every X rounds while normal attacks (and vuln attacks) pass through the RNG of 2nd-3rd-4th-5th attacks + hit vs miss + dodge/parry/block.

Posts: 308

Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:47 pm

Post Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:18 pm

Re: Racial Vulns

Dijj wrote:Also, creation is hitting it's final stages of planning, and with it will come an upheaval of how much of a benefit current creation perks are.


All creation based benefits, point wise, are essentially eliminated by the creation 2.0 default overhauls while races will carry no creation point cost aside from the percent based modifier. Racial perks should not be tied into creation, it's a bad 'benefit' that goes away as soon as the game starts (ie. when you hit 50).

Envenom wrote:* Huge:
- Ogres are vuln to two classes and have better gains than draconians.
- Draconians are vuln to one class, but have a great were skill.


Ogres are only vuln to Psi's as far as I know, and Dracos to Bards as you said. However, until weapons are overhauled, 2h weapons are incredibly under powered and don't provide as much of a benefit as they can. There are few 2h weapons worth taking that are better than 1h (and almost ALL quest weapons are 1h anyway), even with the parry bonus.

Huge races ARE good for the extra benefits in combat based skills (bash, trip, etc all have a size modifier), but all in all the benefit is a bit of a push.

Envenom wrote:* Swim and Fly:
- Avariels are vuln to a single vuln weapon with low avg: 24. They used to be vuln to fire (1 weapon at the time, flashfire, fireball...) but it was a bit too harsh. However, even with the wind racial vuln, their were more than compensates: the shifted magic resistance lessens the racial vuln damage and wing buffet is great.

- Merfolks are a mess. They used to be vuln to lightning (2 exotic weapons at the time, thunderclap, chain lightning...), then became vuln to acid (2 weapons, acid blast) and now are vuln to nothing. Funny thing that their magic resistance did too lower the racial vuln damage they took. Oh! How could I forgot mentioning that they have the strongest (and broken IMO) wereskill in the game? They have absolutely no summoning sickness on pets, regardless of being shifted or unshifted.


Avariels and Merolk need a more realistic vuln, no class should be exposed to a mages vuln obliterating elementals (see the post in the mage forum). They have solid (or absolutely broken in the case of Merfolk) were abilities, but I believe were abilities should be measured separately from an unshifted, normal character racial scale.

Envenom wrote:* Blindfighting - what does that even do?
- Drows fall somewhere between merfolks and avariels. They have that light vuln for quite some time but, unlike avariels, there is no good weapon with it. Well...there used to be one, but it was removed after one year or so around. Their weres, too, benefitted from lowering the racial damage taken when shifted through magic resistance. The main difference between them and merfolks is that drows trade fear for some not as useful wereskill (feed and web?) AND they only gain limitless pet summon while shifted.


Based on an unpublished change in 2009, Drow's get a ~50% bonus to parry while blind. The value hasn't been verified in the last 5 years, plus who really sticks around and fights blind, but in my opinion it's a mediocre perk at best.

Drow's currently cannot be hit by any available weapon in the game, unless some random player has a light weapon hidden away on an alt somewhere. I feel the only race that should be SAFE from a vuln is Kine, and should be addressed accordingly. The race isn't "good" enough to be vuln to an entire class, but should certainly be hittable with something.

(Alternative random idea: Change Templar spell damnoun to light).

Envenom wrote:All in all, what I'm trying to say is:
- Sylvan and Dwarves are fine.


Sylvan are hittable by currently existing weapons, which is novel. Dwarves, per the mage thread should NOT be vulnerable to mage elementals (and instead only be that sort of vulnerable to weapons + Druids). But, I think the change need to be on the mage side and not a vuln side. Mages should not be able to throw 3 vuln hitting spells in between a single round of melee combat. There's too little to do about it past turn combat into "Well, I'm going to trip/bash for the next 90 minutes".

Envenom wrote:- Ogres and Draconians are fine. Ogres will become slightly better once the overcap of attributes is fixed.
- Avariels are in the perfect spot.
- Drows need a stock light weapon, in the same fashion as avariel's.
- Merfolks need a vuln: acid or lightning would fit them best.


I only really disagree with acid on a Merfolk. Guild weapons hit for acid (as it's a damnoun that no one is vuln/res to), and you don't want a race to be vulnerable to all of a combat based guild.

Envenom wrote:- Merfolk Weres need summoning sickness, unless there is a reasonable explanation for their limitless summon.


I 100% agree. Honestly, I think all were summonables should be standardized and make the other were abilities balance out the 'perk' side of a were. Pet's are excellent, but there's too many variations to make each one unique AND easily balanced. I really should make a separate post about that soon.

Envenom wrote: Kender...I have so little experience with them that I'd rather not destroy them with a racial vuln.


Kenders are a race (were aside - meerkats + images are incredibly good) are incredibly under powered (add up the racial max stats in help racestat and see how much of the shaft Gith and Kender actually get).

Envenom wrote:I believe the reason for the old/current vulns not working in PK is fairly simple: vorpal.


I agree... partially with your assessment of vorpal. It was worse when the spell was based off of a classes arsenal (so casters would double dip against vulnerable races), and has been made a little better since being assigned a magic damnoun.

However, you're right in that it bypasses 100% of avoidance skills (it is linked to melee having to land, but you only need one every x rounds). There is no counterbalance for melee on this, and sharp ends up under powered because of it.
Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like, your OPINION, man.

Posts: 150

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:03 pm

Post Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:03 pm

Re: Racial Vulns

The only logical reason I can find for Merfolk were not having summoning sickness is the limited usefulness of the summon. Unlike a druid's wolf, or a red(?) demon, it can not trip or bash. Only melee and rescue. Putting a summon lag on it isn't over the top to me. I would say bring it in line with the drow were summonable, where it has a summon sickness only while shifted. That's just me though. I'll reply more about vulns a little later.

Also, that blindfighting info was posted in a change at 2009. I referenced it when asked about blindfighting, but not the code. I'll pull up the code tomorrow(getting ready for work now) and give you more data once I have it.

I also seem to recall vuln's causing a dodge/parry chance reduction....will have to look into that as well.
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Posts: 124

Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:26 pm

Post Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:36 am

Re: Racial Vulns

"Only" having rescue is still a huge boon, though, since that's still completely shielding the merfolk from melee while being able to put up another one right away when it dies/you lose it. It's even better at being mirror images than mirror images.

Posts: 186

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:14 pm

Post Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:52 am

Re: Racial Vulns

I have to agree with merfolk were's summonable. Without a summon sickness, all they have to do is resummon it, and get it to rescue. Having a mob rescue, whilst you have autoassist on allows that player to the chance to land more attacks. I've seen it whilst fighting hardcore mobs in game and in pk. Just give merfolks a summon sickness.
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