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The Great Never Ending Debate: VAMPIRES

Jenga! Jenga!

Posts: 10

Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:01 am

Post Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:59 pm

The Great Never Ending Debate: VAMPIRES

As of late there has been some backlash towards vampires. I get some interesting feedback from both sides of the fence. Lately, im really considering removing vampires all together. So As I have posted on game and on the facebook page :
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Dearest players of old,

Kind of going through a bit of a debate recently. Who here still thinks Vampires are viable and should remain in DR.

And who here thinks they are useless and detrimental to the game and thinks they just need to go away forever?

And on a side note, is the existence of vampires RIGHT NOW one of the reasons you do not play anymore?

Thank you ahead of time.

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[142] Draban: The great never ending debate: VAMPIRES
Mon Apr 27 16:48:39 2015
To: all
Dearest DR players,

Kind of going through a bit of a debate recently. Who here still thinks
Vampires are viable and should remain in DR.

And who here thinks they are useless and detrimental to the game and thinks
they just need to go away forever?

And on a side note, is the existence of vampires RIGHT NOW one of the
reasons you do not play anymore?

Thank you everyone ahead of time.
-Drab

PS: This is also posted to the Facebook page and soon the Forums. So if you
are worried about backlash due to your opinion, you can post where you feel
more comfortable.
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Any insight on your personal feelings will be greatly appreciated. Also, if we could keep the condescending bitching and blaming and whatnot to an absolute 0, that would great. I just want personal opinions. If you feel more comfortable ... PM me. or send me a not in game or a message on facebook.

Thank you.
User avatar

Posts: 158

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:25 pm

Post Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: The Great Never Ending Debate: VAMPIRES

Posts: 308

Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:47 pm

Post Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:28 pm

Re: The Great Never Ending Debate: VAMPIRES

Overall, I’m very negative on vampires, and it's for a number of reasons.

From a game balance view, they've been turned into PK powerhouses, awarded only to the violent because "PK causes RP". With the current climate of the game, especially in relation PK, no, it doesn't. Tacking 5-7 spells onto someone who more than likely never needed them in the first place to beat whomever they're going to face (especially if they're on a severely broken class {scroll down}) only works to drain more of the fun out of things.

From an RP point of view, their RP has for the most part been the same thing for a decade or longer. Every new generation of vampires is one of two things: "We're bad, we're evil, we're going to get what we want, and we may not even try to RP at all" (namely, any of Liliths direct minions), or "We don't do much of anything, but we may have at some indeterminate time years before" (Liliths indirect minions). Top this off with the fact that vampires (with some exceptions, but exceptions to this aren't what people remember) have been historically the biggest set of cheaters when it comes to bending mud rules (how many rules have been added in to make it so cheating vampires get out of trouble after the fact?). People don't trust them, or trust the decision making process around them. They have been the exclusive creatures to be put on a pedestal over the rest of the player base, and frankly haven't done anything in the last several years to earn that position. The general staff protectionism related to all things vampire has also grown VERY old (look at all of the problems that surrounded the last 2-3 weeks of Lilith's death story arc to see more examples of what's broken in the system).

At the end of the day, what the brief Kiyanne resurgence in the last month has shown me is that the people who give the facade of caring about vampire RP don't actually. There are a number of gawkers who will log on and WATCH what happens, and the log off without actually interacting with another person, period, is higher than it should be. They may be interested in watching a story, but not participating, and at the end of the day, that's what the game is about - being PART of a story. Avalane's memorial service, and its surrounding events and RP, had HOURS more of interaction than anyone has bothered to show 'supporting' vampires in any way, shape or form. As much as I hate to say it, the books of power, as awful as those were, got people far more involved than I believe Kiyanne ever would be able to.

Yes, Dark Risings is meant to be something... dark. There's plenty of others of 'dark' things that could be tapped to reboot the system. Demons would be a great new venture (and I could think of some ways to tie in OTHER horrifically mismanaged creations the game has had to offer in order to 'create conflict') if we want to keep something a bit more omnipotent in play. Granting boons and creating factions of followers among players, all with their own goals. We also have a vast, unexplored world too. Compared to the actual lore of the game, there is so much that's 'unexplored' that sweeping arcs could be put into place that could completely displace the need.

If vampires are at the end of the day something we are to be forever stuck with, then they need to be made to fit the game more appropriately. Should they be able to shift, feed, and have a blood pool? Sure. Should they have a vulnerability that actually exists in the game? Yes, were’s do. Should they get more than one or two useful abilities? Probably not – were’s don’t, and you can RP to become one of those now.

Put in an in game mechanism such as an area based around an incredibly hard trial the player must conquer, force them to RP with some associated entity and let people have their RP. Force people to create their own factions in much the same way they have to elsewhere, and make sure they are subject to the same damn rules as every other player. Every vampire won’t be a PK powerhouse – it’s more based around a player, they may have *an* advantage, but they’ll have definite *disadvantages* as well, and that’s important for actual balance.

If they’re treated more as something that exists, and less of “oh man, so and so got a vampire, why the hell would someone ever approve that?” If some of the causes of the OOC drama related to vampires is removed, then they may start to become more palatable to the rest of the game as a whole.
Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like, your OPINION, man.

Posts: 6

Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:01 pm

Post Sun May 10, 2015 1:50 pm

Re: The Great Never Ending Debate: VAMPIRES

Ask yourself how relevent, beneficial, and productive vampires have been for the last two years and I think the answer is pretty obvious. Why are we even debating keeping a relic that has done nothing worthwhile for actual, measurable years, and have been doing the same thing for a literal decade? Is it because it's all people have DR to remember by? Too much time playing the OOC vampire metagame than actually playing DR?

How much longer are we going to have vampires that do nothing but either be PK bullies, or absolutely **** all, before we all can mutually agree that maybe it's time to move on? People keep saying "vampires are viable, vampires have a place", but apparently that place is years of either doing nothing, a holy grail for anyone who just wants to PK everybody all day, or being a major source of corruption and OOC ******** that pisses so many players off. Do any of those sound like things worth defending, much less keeping?

Posts: 248

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:54 am

Post Mon May 11, 2015 11:00 pm

Re: The Great Never Ending Debate: VAMPIRES

I trust I've pointed this out a couple of times but IMO the toxicity from vampires comes from their really powerful abilities, which in the hands of good PKers (usually the targets of being embraced because Pats want their broods to be absolute powerhouses) become nearly unbeatable. Regarding this point, I see two options for keeping vampires in the game:
1) adding a significantly powerful antagonist (brood hatred failed, seraphs failed) and
2) tonning their abilities down

Then there's the issue of them not generating RP...they do, but it's within a very closed circle, which is one of the usual complaints from players. That part seems to require a change in playing/RPing philosophy: if vampires are to be the epitome of DR's roleplay, these characters should be proficient at creating both inclusive (such as IMM-assisted quest arcs) and shady RPs (the usual spying/diplomacy/secret stuff).

Quick idea: all vampires (or players desiring to become vampires) must write their character's origins lore. That's pretty much what most guilds do, with the difference that it's open to the public. Once that's set, it should become far easier for players to create their own story/quest arcs for developing their characters.

Posts: 186

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:14 pm

Post Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:54 pm

Re: The Great Never Ending Debate: VAMPIRES

I personally like and agree with Envenom's take on the issue.

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