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Elementals

No matter the game - nerf mages.

Posts: 248

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:54 am

Post Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:41 pm

Re: Elementals

Mage's power on PvM quests comes from the fact they don't have to worry with being interrupted (trip, bash...), so they can spam elementals all day.
They don't ever have to stop fighting because they regen 400-600 mana on a resting tick and can use mirrors to soak the occasional damage taken.

Meanwhile, mage's power on PvP comes from the fact elementals are the best tagging option in the game...plus mirror images for tanking most of the damage.

Increasing elementals lag might destroy the class. Plus, where would we go from 3/2/2? 2/2/2 isn't that much a difference and 2/1/1 is power spells...

That said, I believe the best solution is increasing elementals cost up to a point where their mana consumption over 3 rounds is higher than power spells.
[a druid spends 100 mana with nature's wrath, while a mage spends between 42 and 77 mana]

Why should it be higher, instead of equal, bro? Simply because they:
1. Are the fastest hitting spells in the game : easiest tags : best for PK or moving mobs
1. Are the fastest hitting spells in the game : break mirrors faster
2. Hit different vulnerabilities, have additional effects (burn, chill, rust, extra damage)

Posts: 186

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:14 pm

Post Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:48 pm

Re: Elementals

I'm not mage, and honestly can't seem to get motivated to make one and complete it to 50. I still don't know why that is.

If it is about quest scoring. Is there a way to change the code of vorpal for mages only and bring it down to every 3rd round like the rest of the classes. Wildmages can stay the same considering wildfire is so random in damage output, and that the spell and vorpal affect can still backfire on the wildmage causing damage.

It seems mages who know what they're doing have always seemed to conquer those (whack a mob quests). But with vorpal involved their scores soared above the rest. I think looking at vorpal on mages first could resolve this. As Yuneo said, it'd be a shame to revisit mages as a whole, and forfeit the effort put into them to make them differ from the other spellcaster types in the game.

If vorpal still makes mages too OP'd in questing still, then perhaps a deeper look needs to be had.

just my thoughts on the topic.
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Posts: 124

Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:26 pm

Post Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Re: Elementals

[quote="Yuneo"]The 'mages are over-powered' argument seems to come primarily from quests that are set up as 'who can hit the most'. Is this also a problem when it comes to mob hunting? Or pk?

Uh, yes? The problem with mages is that they **** out tons of damage while also having all the utility of a caster class. They **** out damage to win at quests, they **** out damage and have gates and charm for mob hunting, they **** out damage and have gates and tons of HP and mirror images for PK.

[quote="Yuneo"]It is an interesting dynamic that mage spells depend on HP

It's also a dynamic that gives the shitting-out-damage mage class the one thing you never ever see the shitting-out-damage mage class have in a game: durability. Mages are tanks, and having mirrors makes them that much tankier. I play fighter classes, and I cannot last as a mob's target as long as mages do before fleeing. They no longer have the weakness of being a flimsy limp-wristed wizard nerd and instead are on par with even barbarians in HP.

[quote="Yuneo"]If they were changed to mana dependent casters, what other spell opportunities would this give?

None, but being an HP dependent caster doesn't really give any spell opportunities either? I have no idea what you mean with that question.

[quote="Yuneo"]I'd rather see racial vulns removed from chars and mages stay the same

Ahahahaha, you'd rather see racial vulns removed than mages lose their precious elementals? Read that twice and think about how that sounds coming from a mage player. As an actual response: how about we make racial vulns usable (either changing them around or creating weapons to actually hit the unhittable vulns atm) while getting rid of mage's water spell so Dwarf vuln is only for druids.

[quote="Hrobshur"]As Yuneo said, it'd be a shame to revisit mages as a whole, and forfeit the effort put into them to make them differ from the other spellcaster types in the game.
What effort? If there was effort put in to differentiate mages, it didn't amount to a whole lot. The most unique thing about the mage class is their HP scaling, which I haven't seen in other games apparently for good reason, otherwise they're a generic wizard class who use elemental spells. I guess the speed is Interesting Thing Number Two about them? Outside of their elementals they're the caster spellbook, the end. Yawn. They just happen to **** out damage like no one else can. Necromancer vs. Wildmage vs. Psi have more differing and unique things between them than Mage vs. Any Caster.
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Posts: 82

Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:54 am

Post Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:40 pm

Re: Elementals

Not a bad idea envenom. Increasing the cost of the spells might work well.

Landsnecht, I stopped reading your comment after the fourth '****' in your out of the blue aggro response. Have a nice day..

Posts: 71

Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:59 pm

Post Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:59 pm

Re: Elementals

Post about racial vulns

I didn't want to turn this thread into a racial vuln debate, but as it keeps coming up here, I wanted to take the opportunity to share some ideas I have on racial vulns overall. Please jump over and tell me what you think!

Post Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:45 pm

Re: Elementals

The absolute raw power of mage is easily summed up because they have the absolute best way to tag/chase people using elementals. A flown barbarian can only tag with the kill command or dirt kick, both of which are terrible options 90% of the time. Mages will always be superior over every class until this has changed.

Posts: 248

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:54 am

Post Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:01 pm

Re: Elementals

That's 100% true in PK.

If all classes had their own way of quick-tagging, PKing would certainly be a lot more fast-paced.
A few options come to mind:
- Kill command: remove the lag or make its lag as low as elementals'
- Offensive spells: increase casting speed to 2/2/2 + lower damage to compensate
- Offensive skills: increase casting speed to 2/2/2 + lower damage and/or effects to compensate : this includes stuff like kick, buddha palm, poison dagger and arrows

In PvM, mage's damage per mana spent is probably the biggest factor. And vorpal, which I still need to create a solid opinion about.

Posts: 150

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:03 pm

Post Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:51 pm

Re: Elementals

Something I just thought of out of the blue while reading this:

Elementals are just that. The mage uses the elements around him to cast a spell based on said element. Adjust the spells to have 4 known elements. Fire, earth, wind, water. Now for each element, create an "affinity" meter. When the player starts, his affinity for any given spell is neutral. Through use, or killing certain things...or something(I haven't thought this part through entirely) he can raise his affinity with a certain element. However, it causes a reduction of his affinity with the opposite element. At any given time, the mage can only be "good" at two elements, and "bad" at the other two. This would require some foresight for the mage to know what he's going to use in the future.

The benefit of alignment: Faster casting speed/harder hitting?
The detriment of alignment: Slower, weaker. Possibly unusable if fully aligned with opposite element?

Dunno, just something I thought of that might create an interesting dynamic. The affinity could further be used to allow certain spells to be used only when above xx%.

Posts: 186

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:14 pm

Post Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:38 am

Re: Elementals

Sounds cool.

Got the whole last air bender thing going there.

Posts: 150

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:03 pm

Post Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:16 am

Re: Elementals

The elemental idea comes from Quest 64...you essentially control the four elements to attack. Although the affinity portion only adjust what skills you can use, not their strength. In that game you find elemental spirits I believe(been a while since I played it) and apply them to an element to gain new spells, or buffed up versions of previous spells.
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